Transcript
Joe Barhoum
Today I sat down with Jim Irving, who's a sales professional with over 40 years of experience. He's a 2 time author with 2 tremendous books, one that's currently available on Amazon. The beta be selling guidebook. I love this book, so far. It's amazing and on today's episode. We spent most of our time talking about sales philosophy and really that specific vector of what sales is and how it differentiates from marketing and other disciplines.
Joe Barhoum
A wonderful conversation, I think you're gonna love. This episode from the best ones we've ever done.
Joe Barhoum
Also I've got a book it's on Amazon 2. It's not as good as gyms, but it's awesome. And you can find it on Amazon right now, the great sellers playbook thanks a lot.
Joe Barhoum
Kate, Jim I have to admit you're sort of a sales hero for me now after having read a.
Joe Barhoum
Good portion of your book.
Jim Irving
Oh my goodness, OK, I'm yes, I'm surprised but delighted.
Joe Barhoum
Well II started thinking after again, I haven't finished your book yet but.
Joe Barhoum
I've been reading through it, there's a few things that I really love that I want to talk about but one of the important things that I got out of it was you're taking your experience and and giving everyone an opportunity to learn from it, and then he wrap that all up into a really nice structure for each chapter. So it's easy to digest and I just want to applaud you for that structure because I always aim for simplicity with my students.
Joe Barhoum
And my writing, maybe it's 'cause I don't know how to write in a fancy way. But to see that there's someone else out there who has a tremendous amount of experience.
Joe Barhoum
Since that writes in a similar way, it's reaffirming for me, which you know, hey, there's a little bit of selfishness in it, but also it's to me. It's just so much more complete than what I've put together and I just I think it's awesome.
Jim Irving
Oh, thank you very much thank you. I mean, I have to say I have been.
Jim Irving
You know, I'm a first time author I've been both surprised and delighted at the response to the book. So yeah, obviously some things in there are touching people? Yeah.
Joe Barhoum
Well, we'll definitely dive into.
Joe Barhoum
The book but if you don't know.
Joe Barhoum
And I'd like to get to know you even a little bit more than I already do it. So tell us about yourself 43 years of sales experience who's the man behind the experience.
Jim Irving
Yeah, in fact, this month, it's 44. I'm just I just ticked over another one. How many quarter ends is that I mean, I'm just yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim Irving
Anyway.
Jim Irving
Do you know like almost everybody and it's something that does worry me? I went into sales completely by accident?
Jim Irving
I was working in an administrative job, I got promotion life was good, but it was a low fixed salary.
Jim Irving
House outside town.
Jim Irving
First, baby, born and on the way to work one day, the gearbox went in the car no disaster.
Jim Irving
You managed to scrape enough money together to to to to get that repaired. The next week. The clutch went and my wife turned to me and said you've got to get a job with the car.
Jim Irving
Oh yeah look at what jobs have got cars. Oh, I'll try this selling thing and like so many people. I stumbled into sales best mistake or best non judgment of my life, Yeah 'cause. It's worked out fantastically well for me so.
Jim Irving
So that was 44 years ago and my whole career has been in technology.
Jim Irving
First, 30 years, the traditional path up the corporate world, yeah, so sales. Senior sales branch. Manager Marketing Manager Divisional manager and then ultimately I was running half of the corporations business.
Jim Irving
For Europe, Africa and Middle East for a big US technology company and then finally.
Jim Irving
UK Managing Director for a major software company.
Jim Irving
And after all, of that and 30 years elapsed and having got so many things wrong. I then thought. I want to do my own thing. So I moved from the corporate world and everything that it afforded me.
Jim Irving
To a small desk in my kitchen.
Jim Irving
And well right now, I'm gonna try something different, and if I went so that's the last 14 years and what what happened very quickly was I realized that.
Jim Irving
My experience in the corporate world was good.
Jim Irving
But there was actually a ton of need in startups for entrepreneurs for smaller companies. So I started to work with local venture capital companies, helping their client organisations and I've been doing. That first of all in Edinburgh and London and then for the last 11 years here where I now live in Northern Ireland.
Jim Irving
So corporate career and then helping and actually sometimes going into startups or smaller companies to accelerate or improve sales standard or to run the business? Yeah.
Joe Barhoum
You know something that.
Joe Barhoum
It's not a planned question and typically I prep right for a podcast. Ness might be is what I want to ask but yeah, popped into my head and.
Joe Barhoum
I can think of no one better to ask this question of.
Joe Barhoum
What's changed about sales in 44 years?
Joe Barhoum
If anything.
Jim Irving
What a great question?
Jim Irving
First of all.
Jim Irving
The process.
Jim Irving
And if you're selling larger value transactions.
Jim Irving
The relationship stuff hasn't changed in the slightest very good agreed no change.
Jim Irving
Even with you know conversations happening like this as opposed to happening face to face it's still the same human dialogue.
Jim Irving
If you're talking about.
Jim Irving
The use of technology or the capability good grief. I was working for a technology company. When I started and I typed memos, which were sent in the boost.
Jim Irving
You know you know this thing called email came along wonderful so, so I am.
Jim Irving
So I see that technology and the technology aids and helpers are there to give you another example. I was trying to sell in that very first roll to the largest bank in Scotland.
Jim Irving
And I wanted to do the good professional sales thing and focus on researching who is I should be contacting.
Jim Irving
I had to type a letter to send to the company secretary to ask if they would send me information on the bank and the latest annual report.
Jim Irving
3 weeks later, an envelope came now of course. Today, if you search for that bank online and even if you put in the name of the bank and strategy or news or developments. You're going to get well. I did it for strategy and I got 12000000 hits.
Joe Barhoum
Unbelievable, right so the.
Jim Irving
Ability to access and understand is far greater and that means that the excuse of saying Oh well. I didn't really have time to research or get to know them doesn't cut it for me.
Jim Irving
Yeah, because I knew what it was like starting with a blank sheet of paper and trying to figure things out. That's not the case. Today, any organization that you're selling too will have some presence even if you have nothing more than their website to have a look at and to understand how it is that they're operating so.
Jim Irving
So nothing has changed in the process.
Jim Irving
Everything has changed in the technology and the capability and the support infrastructure.
Joe Barhoum
So there's 2 factor 2 vectors right there's the.
Joe Barhoum
The interpersonal we'll call it the process of sales as vector one vector 2 is the technology around sales, which has changed and evolved and matured, yeah, there's a third vector that crossed my mind, as well and that's
Joe Barhoum
I don't know a good way to describe it. Let's call it the.
Joe Barhoum
The cloud of dust around sales so.
Joe Barhoum
There's this operator there's a a dynamic there's a dynamism behind the definition of what sales is and there's conflation between sales and marketing and I think it's becoming ever more conflated because of the technology because of the analytics and reporting capabilities all the CMS and marketing automation software out there.
Joe Barhoum
And I think that a lot of a lot of what sales is like if you want to put sales on a pedestal and say this is sales.
Joe Barhoum
I think it's starting to come down to those who know the process and follow it.
Joe Barhoum
Are the ones who rise to the top?
Jim Irving
Yes yes and and my goodness has that changed you know again going back and it's a It's a dreadful thing to do, but it's good to have the perspective coming back to the beginning, I was a salesperson. My job was to sell I was called a salesperson, I sold and marketing delivered leaflets.
Jim Irving
That was the world.
Jim Irving
No, you've got business development. You've got client success. You've got inside sales. There's this whole world of intermediaries and of course, by the way sales is the only profession if you say to someone that you meet socially? What do you do they'll say I'm an accountant?
Jim Irving
They'll say I'm a banker.
Jim Irving
Soon, as you have some what you do 90% of sales. People say, well, I'm a business development executive. I'm nor your salesperson, yeah, so let's not be shy and let's be proud because it is and should be a profession.
Jim Irving
But there are so many gradations and variations now.
Jim Irving
And it makes that world much more complex. I always try to simplify it down and say that marketing under message under visibility.
Jim Irving
Sales on the Relationship and the revenue so well in my head when I see all of these things crossing over which of those 2 camps? Are you in?
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, you gotta pick one.
Jim Irving
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it's said that every good sales leader. Now also has to be a market here and I think I agree with that. At one level. But there's far too much opportunity now for conflation and forgetting what the purpose of sales is.
Jim Irving
And what it's about.
Joe Barhoum
But that it's really important to me what you're saying right now because there's a part of me and I don't have 44 years of experience right, but II've been at this for 15 and yeah. There's there's a part of me that feels like maybe there should be an.
Joe Barhoum
A defensive sales like maybe there is opportunity.
Joe Barhoum
For a group.
Joe Barhoum
- Or maybe it's not a grouper and maybe it's not a movement at all. But forforsome reason I have this thought in my mind in my heart's kind of warming up to this as well that.
Joe Barhoum
There should be a defensive sales like you're saying we shouldn't be shy. We should be proud. You know, there's so many people. It goes back to your initial comments if you stumbled into sales. I stumbled into sales too. I'm a computer science grad. Everybody does everyone does like and part of that is, you know from a scholastic standpoint, we don't have schools and universities that teach.
Joe Barhoum
Sales anymore than a single class, I have one class, I offer a certificate. I offer with 4 classes but 3 of those classes aren't sales. It's just the best I could do to get a certificate right now more market in the our sales and there's a CRM class in there, too, so there's some sales technology. But that's a separate vector as we discussed but I feel like there should be.
Joe Barhoum
Some more pride in the fact that you're a salesperson. There's so many amazing sales people that.
Joe Barhoum
That I've interacted with those seen them do great things and that's why I try to capture in my book. I like my dad is one of the best sales people. I've ever met. He ran a nursery. He was an entrepreneur small visit owner. He and he killed it and the reason he killed it. I mean, it's not like he hasn't mentioned but he ran a successful business. Yes, he ran it himself for 30 years.
Joe Barhoum
As you know prior to that, he worked for his uncle, but part of the reason I say my dad's amazing, it sales.
Joe Barhoum
Is he's great at the relationships now that's everything right? But if we're going to say OK? Let's put that stand alone. Vector sales process, he knows how to build report connect with people and then of course, help them find a solution to their problem.
Jim Irving
Yes, yeah, yeah, and and you know what II couldn't agree more this image of sales.
Jim Irving
Certainly in the UK is of the guy at the corner of the street with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth going. You wanna buy or whatever it is.
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, the trench coat with all the.
Jim Irving
Yeah, that's right you watch is yeah here. We got have or there's there's there's a a big comedy show here called only fools and horses and it's it's one of those traders and he just lives by.
Jim Irving
You're doing this and getting that it, you know, and that's the image that people have yeah, and the thing that damages sales is that?
Jim Irving
We all know people who sold by.
Jim Irving
Talking over the customer trying to bro be doing their student sales is about helping people in their business, or in their line of work or whatever to get the results that they need more effectively. And I'm very comfort. Rible, when it when I talk to people about the services I offer.
Jim Irving
If it's not a fit let's not carry on.
Jim Irving
You're better off finding someone who is a better fit and I'm better off talking to somebody else. You know, let's not be shy about that. But so many people are desperate to just whatever comes up dive down and try and close that yeah, and they think their fantastic because they do that. But that doesn't build relationships that doesn't build people who call you 5 years from now and say are you still involved in that marketplace could you help us?
Jim Irving
Yeah, it doesn't do that, so sales is important, and at the base of it. When I'm presenting or talking in a corporate office. You know, I'll stop the people and say have a look around the room.
Jim Irving
And they're going to say, Well, you know.
Jim Irving
This meeting tables only here.
Jim Irving
Because the sales person representing that company sold better than someone else.
Jim Irving
The large screen comes because someone sold in fact, all of SOC exists in prospers because of sales. But it is the only area of society that doesn't have a professional body and standard.
Jim Irving
No.
Jim Irving
In the UK, we got a thing called the ISN the Institute of sales management. I'm fortunate enough to be a Fellow of that doesn't get nearly enough airtime or support doesn't get any government support you know, and I see.
Jim Irving
In a very quiet moment in the middle of the pandemic. When I've finished a section of the book. I took a day out, and did some primary research and I found from memory in the UK 252 pure marketing first degree courses.
Jim Irving
And a thousand business courses featuring marketing II found 5 that mentioned sales.
Jim Irving
Only one of which had 50% of the content being sales. So when you look at that when you look at that. You know by the way mid 70s marketing was uh. Oh, you wouldn't get a degree in marketing and then it became part of a degree and then it begins. We all do they've done a fantastic job of marketing? Well, there's a short so now.
Jim Irving
So now mark.
Jim Irving
This thing is really good and by the way I have to take my hat off or do this turn that round. I'm also a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of marketing so I actually sit with my feet in both camps marketing know where they're going have the professional qualifications have the standards behind them have the image in the business world.
Jim Irving
Sales are still seen as that extra yeah.
Jim Irving
And that's an enormous problem sales is the business.
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, so, so I sorry to interrupt you sorry.
Jim Irving
No no no no.
Joe Barhoum
And.
Joe Barhoum
II don't know if we're going to solve this on our in our conversation. Today, right, but but I will not do that. I just want to explore it further. I it's not what we plan on talking about. But it in a sense, it might be a good representation of your book why, why is it that sales doesn't have its own standards?
Joe Barhoum
I think you know from what I've read of your book.
Joe Barhoum
And I know you've read mine. There's a lot of there's a lot of compatibility.
Joe Barhoum
Millimeter between what we're saying to each other. And, Yes. Yes, 40, plus years of experience I have fewer than 20 and yet we're talking the same language.
Jim Irving
Yes, and, yes, it is.
Joe Barhoum
So this is a we have an opportunity and we're not the only ones right. Kent Somers, who introduced us. Kent has can has a process very similar to what we were doing so much of it.
Joe Barhoum
If you think about the results take quota aside take the commissions aside something you mentioned I think is a good way to talk about how we can reverse engineer into a set of standards that everyone can agree with on sales and hopefully remove the shroud of sales is bad and sneaky and that is, you, said sales is that relationship where someone calls you 5 years from now.
Joe Barhoum
And says hey are you still in the business, yeah.
Joe Barhoum
II've given this example, many times on my podcast, but when I started my own consulting practice. About 2 years ago. My best customer in 2019 and this year? Is someone I failed to sell to 10 years ago.
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, I maintain the Relationship and connected with her and you know when the time was right. I called and I said. Hey just a heads up. I'm doing this now, she said. Oh my gosh, we could use your help. Yes, yeah, and they they did use my help, and it was mutually beneficial and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jim Irving
Yeah, yeah, and and you know, my career went from.
Jim Irving
Door to door selling in winter in Scotland, which is not the best place to be.
Jim Irving
Jim Irving
Running and the half of the corporates business and running a business at about a run rate of something like 202 150000000.
Jim Irving
A year wow.
Jim Irving
And through all of that when you step back and look at it. It's the relationships. It's the ethics. It's the standards that are important people out there have needs your company provides services product solutions. Whatever you want to call it and if there's a match, you can help them succeed.
Jim Irving
If there's not why on Earth are you talking.
Jim Irving
So so there's that there's that whole thing, but in amongst all of that career.
Jim Irving
I like you have had situations where people have made contact or I've contacted back and Becausw. Whatever you've done they have seen as being professional logical appropriate whether you won or lost immediately happy to reengage and speak again. And that's what it's about it's about building and building and building.
Jim Irving
Uh a lot of sales people and I'm sure you've had the same experience you see.
Jim Irving
Just charge forward burning a bridge today. Yes, that's that's not a long term strategy.
Joe Barhoum
I agree and this is one of my biggest.
Joe Barhoum
Complaints about sales curriculum that I've seen is it's all about. Here's the sales process. Here's the selling process here sales methodologies Here's your sales playbook.
Joe Barhoum
What about the buying process or about the by?
Joe Barhoum
Same playbook why aren't we investigating in training sales people around? What buyers go through because you know buyers they have need recognition and they have needed definition and so forth and so on. Well, your job isn't just to say OK buyer. You've now entered my sales process. So we're going to do a first call and then a discovery and then a demo and blah blah blah blah blah.
Joe Barhoum
No. No. No, you a sales person need to figure out where is the buyer in the buying process? How can you help them make sure that?
Joe Barhoum
You're in the best possible position to to.
Joe Barhoum
To confirm what their needs are based? What they have around them because they may have an incomplete need definition.
Joe Barhoum
Write down the wrong path.
Jim Irving
Yeah, by the week when you get to that and if you're selling something which is you know if it's if it's a pure commodity. People are only interested in price, and can you deliver it tomorrow put that to one side agree if you were doing anything as any degree of complex?
Jim Irving
See and you're selling to any organization bigger than a couple of people.
Jim Irving
Who are those who will be involved in the decision? Who are the users? Who are the technical buyers? Who are the commercial buyers who is the ultimate decision maker you know, there's a whole.
Jim Irving
There's a whole art and the science behind that.
Jim Irving
Of trying to bring together and to understand and you right is that exploration thing, but you have to do that in terms of what their needs are and their time scales and their priorities and again if there's not a match? Why are you putting your time in there? Yeah.
Joe Barhoum
So my whenever I pick up a new client or you know over the years had different jobs. And I'll talk to my wife about oh. I you and I've got this potential client. Here's what they do, and and it's almost universal my wife says that hard to sell an you.
Joe Barhoum
Know I pretty much say almost every time like.
Joe Barhoum
Not really isn't it's not hard to sell the thing the hard part is do you have the support you need?
Joe Barhoum
To deliver and 'cause I mean, I could talk to people II talked I could talk to anybody. It's just a snack.
Joe Barhoum
Hilton, but I've had my whole life, even before I got into sales. I was always able to talk and you know II can talk and I can get investigate and I can dig deeper, you know multi multi layered questions. But do we actually have a support inside the organization and representing 2 delivered?
Joe Barhoum
Yes, and maybe this is a good time to because that that's uh a foray into challenges like internal challenges. Yeah, patients. This might be a good time to pivot and talk a little more about your book.
Jim Irving
OK, OK sure.
Joe Barhoum
Sure, so there's a few things in a few chapters of your book that II loved thus far. I mean, I've loved everything so far. These 3 kind of rose to the top and we'll try to get to all of them. If we have enough time, but before we get into any of those just AA quick overview. So, your book is the the beta be selling. Guidebook yes, it's available on Amazon but can advance.
Joe Barhoum
There we go there, we go Yep.
Joe Barhoum
The BDB selling guide book on Amazon. It's it's under $10 for the Kindle version.
Joe Barhoum
So it's very.
Joe Barhoum
Portable and and everyone knows now that I love it. So far, but one thing that I want to call out is the way you structured the book so every every chapter starts with an introduction.
Joe Barhoum
Right this kind of defining what the chapter is about and then you give an example. So here's something happened in Mycareer.
Joe Barhoum
Yes, you give.
Joe Barhoum
Give some credence to the to the introduction and then you say OK now here's what it all means right you're going to dumb it down for you? Here's the lesson.
Joe Barhoum
Why do you structure it that way?
Jim Irving
Because I wanted something that a salesperson would read. I don't know, but your book library. I have there's a handful of books. More than a handful of no after the 40 ideas that are well thumbed and folded over and marked and all the rest of it, yeah, but there are so many books sales people tend to be very creative.
Jim Irving
And they tend to have a short attention span so I've got books. There III hate to count. How many books. I've got that the fold over as it pays 20 or 30.
Jim Irving
I think yeah, this is OK, but I'll get back to it, I wanted something that someone could pick up.
Jim Irving
On the morning before the headaches are called in the Old World and where they could read learn a lesson and apply it half an hour later.
Jim Irving
I want them to be able to do that in sort of under 10 minutes of chapter.
Jim Irving
I want them to be able to think about it think about it in the context of selling and how they sell versus my experience and as you will have seen the book.
Jim Irving
Is 5050 between things that went well for me and also things that didn't go because there are really great lessons. In what didn't work. So so II just came across and there was no planning. This book started off as a sheet of paper and I wrote down headings and it took me about an hour and the Headings became the chapters and then I put them in order.
Jim Irving
And then I said right, I want to say what's this about.
Jim Irving
Always give an example from the real world talk it through and then summarize and so, so that's what came out and yeah, the interesting thing is I didn't think about it. I was just typing away at a sort of stream of consciousness.
Jim Irving
The number of reviews for professional viewers reviews that have said that it's a very conversational style. It's much easier to read than other books have been in this area.
Jim Irving
And that they've got more out so that's that's been fantastic for me because that's what I wanted. I'm very happy for people to disagree oh your chapter 10 was rubbish. I do it. The exact opposite way. That's fine. As long as you've got an opinion and you've got a view and how you will be doing it. But I want everyone who reads the book to sit down at the ending or yeah, I've learned 3 things.
Jim Irving
And we can do that.
Joe Barhoum
I mean that that's a brilliant way to structure. The book and I love the origin story as well. It's just like you stumbled into sales. You sort of stumbled into authorship, yeah, yeah, Nintendo right necessarily a book and.
Joe Barhoum
I think that's the same thing kind of happened to me and I think that's a really great genuine way to write something that requires a genuine pen.
Joe Barhoum
I guess if you come at it like like those other books and II bag on sales books. Often and I probably shouldn't 'cause. It's not nice but part of the reason that II don't like a lot of the sales books that are recommended is that they're fluff.
Joe Barhoum
There's a lot.
Joe Barhoum
Of Fluff and that's why people don't finish them at least the people were referring to don't finish them. That's why I don't finish them. I mean, I try. But they end up just boring me 'cause I'm like OK. There's 8 sentences that I could boil down to one, I can't do this for 400 pages.
Jim Irving
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the way you.
Joe Barhoum
Structured yours, it's I think even the way that I described how I've been reading the book.
Joe Barhoum
Is exactly as you expected II looked at the chapter headings? I'm like oh this one looks really interesting bang?
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, and there's a there's a handful that I'd like to talk about sure sure.
Joe Barhoum
Ask the dumb questions.
Jim Irving
Right OK, I mean that's I people laugh when you see that the headlight and so, so, so let me do what I do in the book. So so first of all there's a lot of commentary and science and discussion about questioning open closed. The 4 types of 6 types of 3 types of questions. Whatever it is, and if you go on Google you'll get.
Jim Irving
Multiple millions of options on that, so, so there's all of that.
Jim Irving
But I'm a great fan and this again happened by accident.
Jim Irving
I've actually asking really dumb question now in the book I refer to the fantastic character of Colombo.
Jim Irving
Yeah, do that bulk oh, I forgot one thing, yeah, yeah, you know.
Jim Irving
And what the the first time this happened to me.
Jim Irving
I was selling to a really large organization and I was selling in the mainframe world. There was a you know a large incumbent there that have been there for many years and I was trying to figure out a way to get an access point I got.
Jim Irving
Got on well with a senior person.
Jim Irving
And so I don't know how I'm going to take this forward and then I just said.
Jim Irving
Is everything that you have in the Corporation least? Yes. That's our policy OK?
Jim Irving
Would I be able to see the lease is straightforward dumb? Question and the guy who had been in his role about 20 years, said no no one's ever asked us that.
Jim Irving
I don't see why not?
Jim Irving
And off we trotted down the corridor and you know downstairs along to this cost, accountants office when I was introduced and the person was asked if they would see releasing information. So I left the building with all of the technology leasing plans start day end date. Residual value everything you know in a little bit of a state of shock.
Jim Irving
And it was like OK.
Jim Irving
And guess what I got a sale because my deal happened to come in at exactly the right time. A slightly lower price and you know it's like yeah well.
Jim Irving
But it was a dumb question another one that I did.
Jim Irving
I mean that's a lot of examples. 'cause I'm quite dumb, but but another one was another major institution talking tonight person they had a massive infrastructure.
Jim Irving
I mean, we're talking hundreds of staff in the IT department.
Jim Irving
And I just said, This is really hard to follow. I don't know who does this.
Jim Irving
Would you give me your organization chart and again? It was that same response?
Jim Irving
Yeah, why not? Now this was in the 90s and the person was a senior execs so they had the big PC. Of course, it would be a big PC and they say that the old dot matrix printer with a paper fan folded out. Yeah, yeah, this thing started to print and it printed and printed and I thought, What's going on?
Jim Irving
But I sat there and it eventually it was ripped off and I got, I can't number 1520 pages.
Jim Irving
So of course, as soon as I got out of the office. I opened up and said Well, you know What is this? It was their internal current organizational plan, including the project teams the projects they were working on their email addresses their personal phone numbers.
Jim Irving
Everything all 'cause I asked a dumb question.
Jim Irving
And so I become a great fan of that now there is that there is AA life. A time scale for a dumb question you been speaking with someone for 3 months and you've not yet asked a dumb question and then you ask it. They will think you're done. But at the beginning in the early stages. You can pretty well ask anything as long as it's not in.
Jim Irving
Proper and ethical and people will consider it on its merits. So so that's just something I thought and and I know use when I meet with people and just ask the dumb questions and you know what 90% is fine. No one gets upset or they might say no that's not information. We give out fine move on to the next thing.
Joe Barhoum
And so why do you think sales people generally don't ask dumb questions?
Jim Irving
Well, I think there's a very simple answer to that sales people generally don't ask enough questions full stop.
Jim Irving
Millimeter sales people really, really have a?
Jim Irving
A desire to get into the product sell to the pitch to the demonstration or whatever and don't take enough time to figure out if there is a match if their needs and what you can deliver fit.
Jim Irving
And so II think that questioning is probably the most underrated skill in selling generally and I think that it's something that we could all do more often do better, so I think I think people don't ask questions full stop.
Jim Irving
And in amongst that there's a category of dumb questions.
Joe Barhoum
So listening to this podcast, we're watching very likely are going to be.
Joe Barhoum
Executives sales leaders.
Joe Barhoum
Entrepreneurs and sales people. Yeah, what's what's your advice to them to get better at asking questions or to hold their team accountable for asking questions.
Jim Irving
Yeah, like you know, there's there's a whole bunch of things you can do funnily enough. One of the things that happened, you're in Portland. Of course, and I work for a company called sequent who are based in Beaverton and one of the things my sales leader used to do, if we went out in a call together.
Jim Irving
Here is a fantastic test for any sales person or sales leaders to do you walk into and you situation so zoom call with a customer? Whatever it might be? How long is it before you mentioned.
Jim Irving
Your product or your company.
Jim Irving
Usually, it's 30 seconds or 2 minutes or 3 minutes.
Jim Irving
So the game there was keep asking the questions keep drilling down keep trying to understand and the goal was to get to 30 minutes.
Jim Irving
That was a real lesson for me.
Jim Irving
Because getting to 30 minutes meant you knew an awful lot and you know The funny thing was.
Jim Irving
The customer thought it was a great meeting.
Jim Irving
Because someone was interested engaged trying to understand more trying to analyze whereas the previous 6 had come in wanting to immediately pitch and talk about how good they were.
Jim Irving
So so there's you there's a process of saying before you sell anything, you have to understand and the understanding comes through questions. So if you're not asking questions if you've not change yourselves in questioning if you don't understand the different question types.
Jim Irving
And how can you do that? Well, it's the same as falling into being a salesperson people fall?
Jim Irving
Willing to asking questions, but there's a whole world of learning out there, it's really worth getting into.
Joe Barhoum
Man, it, I think that's fantastic. I love that I was are you familiar with the author Jeffrey Gitomer.
Jim Irving
No. OK. Sorry. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Yes, I know yeah.
Joe Barhoum
He's a wild.
Jim Irving
At the Little Red Book Little Red book right OK. I've got, I've got it through there. Yeah.
Joe Barhoum
That was the book that I used for a for teaching for about 5 years.
Joe Barhoum
OK, right before I switch to mine.
Joe Barhoum
And II like them.
Joe Barhoum
Look it has its faults part of the reason that I shouldn't say false. There's some things. I disagree with and that's why I stopped using it. I was tired of sort of defending certain points, but it's a great book. It's a book. I definitely recommend in my top 5 for sales books.
Joe Barhoum
But one of the things that he talks about is.
Joe Barhoum
And he writes in a similar fashion to us a little more fluff. I think but generally speaking, he's to the point. And in this book, he says it's not who you know it's who knows you.
Joe Barhoum
And, of course.
Joe Barhoum
Need to read the chapter really get the context. But the way. The reason I'm bringing it up is that it's case in point? What you're talking about.
Joe Barhoum
A lot I think a lot of sales people again who stumbled into it.
Joe Barhoum
The way that and this is probably gonna take us down a rabbit hole, but the way that sales.
Joe Barhoum
Sales people are held accountable. Generally speaking right quota, commissioned, yeah, you lose your job if you will be put on a tip all that stuff.
Joe Barhoum
I think that that encourages sales people too.
Joe Barhoum
To try to be aggressive.
Joe Barhoum
Yes, I need to know if this is a deal I can win.
Jim Irving
Yes.
Joe Barhoum
And they don't take the time to make sure someone gets to know them. Yes, and I think the best way to get for someone to get to know you is for you to ask them questions, not for you to tell them everything about start don't start your life story, and talk and tell everybody who you are. It's to ask questions and find ways to relate find the thing that you could then talk about.
Joe Barhoum
To build a report in relationship with somebody.
Joe Barhoum
And So what you're talking about is very much beginner was talking about in a highly acclaimed highly used book and of course, didn't poach it, but just the fact that we talked about the very beginning. Sales hasn't changed. There is a perfect example of 2 different languages, saying the same thing.
Jim Irving
Yeah, and you know what?
Jim Irving
If I want to be brutal, I would say sales has regressed.
Jim Irving
Let me explain what I mean, Alright in the world in the world of Technology. When I joined. Let me throw. Some names I worked for the second biggest technology company in Europe in the 70s company called Olivetti Italian company very successful. But they competed with IBM. Burroughs NCR the work there were about Eunice. Whatever they're called before the unit says.
Jim Irving
About 7 or 8 companies.
Jim Irving
Those companies took people off the street.
Jim Irving
I was sent to a remote training center.
Jim Irving
For 6 weeks.
Jim Irving
And wasn't let loose to sell until I understood the process. How to ask questions how to understand needs how to move it along how to demonstrate professionally.
Jim Irving
And so there was this whole world of selling that was built to a standard and everyone who started with any of those companies wasn't allowed near customer until they had you know until they had at least a basic level of skill, and knowledge now today, not only is it very likely that the salesperson will not.
Jim Irving
I've had formal sales training.
Jim Irving
It's very likely that the person who is teaching them. The sales leader has also not had.
Jim Irving
So how can you expect you if you said to someone please go and fix that car I've never done it before? Don't worry you'll figure it out.
Jim Irving
Well, you know what you might get a couple of things right, but you're gonna get a ton of things wrong.
Jim Irving
And surprise surprise in selling no one no invest up front in the way that those companies used to so today. I think the starting base point is actually lower than it was.
Jim Irving
All that time ago.
Joe Barhoum
Man, I think you're 100% right in fact, I was thinking about sales technology right. CRM systems, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're tracking activity. The tracking outbound calls and they're you know they're tracking time on the phone. There is there is a plugin for zoom.
Joe Barhoum
And I'm not using it.
Joe Barhoum
But there's a plugin for zoom. I learned about that will record that you'll do a transcription of the phone call.
Joe Barhoum
And then it will it will rate the sales.
Joe Barhoum
Person based on how many questions, they ask right, which implies you. I don't know the technology but you probably start all your questions with who what where when why and how which aren't necessarily the best way to ask questions. But regardless like sales sales. People are being measured and monitored to a level of granularity that I think.
Joe Barhoum
Supports what you're saying.
Jim Irving
Yes, yeah, and you know what? When I started in the 70s. We had a sheet of paper and sitting in the basement office, which is what it was smoke filled you know to write down every call you've made you so we got to see our endpoint that handwritten.
Jim Irving
That recording has not changed in all of that time because.
Jim Irving
It's what the company wants to keep a record and the company wants to have does it give any value to the salesperson?
Jim Irving
Not particularly.
Jim Irving
No CRM companies will say they do, but I actually disagree with them. And when a couple of fairly hefty arguments about with CRM vendors about what value they delivered to the salesperson. The answer is pretty well zero unless you take that raw data.
Jim Irving
Structure it and then go up the scale to information to knowledge to wisdom and what I mean by that and this is something that's that's in the books that you've got.
Jim Irving
Is there's a whole process around the concept of ratios?
Jim Irving
And I think that is so important, so let's say your first step is delete comes in. You make contact. You think it's real sales qualified lead the next step is exploration.
Jim Irving
What percentage of people go from the first step the second step? What percentage from the second to the third and what's the ratio.
Jim Irving
One to 212312 foot whatever all the way from the first contact to deal because once you've got that information. It's very easy to retrofit if you've got 6 months of that history you can say right well. This was taking we need 47 leads here.
Jim Irving
To get a deal there, yeah? How do we get more leads or hold on a minute between?
Jim Irving
Explanation and demonstration.
Jim Irving
4 or 5 or falling out what are we not doing right? What's not happening so you can take the data that's held in the CRM's you could when I was doing it. On paper and by the way the bosses in that company did that calculation manually so they were doing it in the 70s.
Jim Irving
But the CRM's, which are built to be a record.
Jim Irving
Based system most of them aren't doing that, today and I think that's the single core. Most important thing that can come out because you can learn yourself and then the manager can compare.
Millimeter.
Jim Irving
How come Joe converts 3 out of 4 that gets the last stage and poor or Jim's getting one out of 4? What is your doing Yep so there's a whole world of knowledge that there that I don't think is being taken up as much as it should be so CRM is a burden.
Jim Irving
Not a tool to increase revenues.
Joe Barhoum
Yeah, in a lot.
Joe Barhoum
Ways it's used as a like you, said a record keeping system because if we lose that salesperson. We don't want to lose the information that they help.
Jim Irving
And that's been the color that's been the core driver. Yep, Yep with with the rotation and the attrition and sales people. We want to keep the knowledge and that's been the purpose so that's that's the base of how most of them were written.
Joe Barhoum
Did you think that I know we're running out of time, but one more question for you? Do you think that the adoption. The wide adoption of CRM systems such as sales force and hub spot if you want to call that.
Joe Barhoum
Serum system do you feel like the adoption of those systems is a supporting the denigration of what it means to be a salesperson?
Jim Irving
I think in the way that most of them are structured when they arrive on the user site. I believe that is the case. I think sales have become more mechanistic more structured more now. The numbers are critically important. Yeah, if you don't get your target. There's a problem. If you're not converting enough from here to here there's a problem.
Jim Irving
But not its base what's happened is that there's been a layer of administration and often not the easiest to use administration added on to what previously existed so the technology has the ability to deliver incredible value, but I think in most situations. It's not doing that.
Joe Barhoum
Jim Irving This is one of the best conversations, I've had in a long time.
Jim Irving
Thank you thank you.
Joe Barhoum
Tell us again, OK, you have 2 books.
Jim Irving
I have 2 books talk about.
Jim Irving
But both are in.
Jim Irving
Uh the only hard copy is available and to be honest, one of the things you have notice that is at the end of each chapter.
Jim Irving
I've actually put in a notes page, so that people can say, Oh, that was good at making up to themselves so the vast majority of sales have been on the hard copy. But the hard copy is only available from Amazon ebook pretty well. Everybody anyone that you if you buy from Apple or Google or Barnes and Noble or whatever it is.
Jim Irving
Is there there's also an audio book version available on most platforms the second one should have been out 2 weeks ago but here's the thing.
Jim Irving
Unexpected byproduct of the coronavirus.
Jim Irving
All the people stuck at home started writing books. So so by compared with the first book. The second book. The time for it to go to print and to be available has probably trebled.
Jim Irving
And the audible version.
Jim Irving
It was a week last time minimum 60 days this time, wow, so away behind. But the second book is the beta be. That's obviously a sheet of paper to be to be leaders. Guide book and that's for those who are or about to lead sales teams corporate business units startups.
Jim Irving
Entrepreneurs small business owners it's about running a business to create money and revenue more effectively while being ethical.
Joe Barhoum
Before a entrepreneurs and executives who are listening that may want to engage your services? How can they reach you?
Jim Irving
So the easiest way is to reach out, I'm I'm on linktone.
Jim Irving
And on LinkedIn. It's really easy. I was in very early, so I am just Jim Irving and the city is Belfast. So it's not the most complicated search in the world and the book features. It you'll know you're in the right one because this comes up straight away. I've also got a website, which is all the WS B to be selling Gabe.
Jim Irving
Dot com.
Jim Irving
And that tells a lot more about the book and in the next week. We'll be seeing a lot more about book too.
Joe Barhoum
Jim but I really enjoyed the conversation to have this wonderful. It really was. and I think we have a lot more to unpack and maybe we'll do that offline, but thank you very much.
Jim Irving
No no delighted to help. Thank you very much for having me then yeah, I enjoyed it.